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标题: 如何从tom2d到8d（转） [打印本页]

作者: 18k拥剑 时间: 2012-7-17 21:35
标题: 如何从tom2d到8d（转）
老外写的，刚看到的时候被雷倒，分享给大家happy一下

I saw many friends in forum complaining they can't make progress, I will share my self-learn experience about I from Tygem 2D to 8D.

Before talking the details, I have to point out several points about study quality and study will.

1) study quality
No matter do tsumego or have matchs, without quality it's insignificant. We can see some internet player have played thousands games, but still stay at k-level or low dan, this because of study quality.

2) You should know the right way
If your study way it's proper, you can avoid detours. We play Go since the late 1980s had have many detours, wasted lots times.

I remember I hold a Joseki dictionary and memorize the contents, I could repeat every variations from memory and self-satisfaction for it. After I improved some years later, I know it was a detour, wasted many years.

3) strong-willed of study
To be a Tygem 8D it's not hard, but need pay a lot. If you use all off hours on the game, from Tygem 2D to 8D needs 3 years at most, if you don't want sacrifice too many off hours, needs 5 years at most.

When you wake up, you are thinking go, even when you visit your friend's home you also take a go book, when you are idel you hold a go book, do such then 3 years later you must be a 8D.

There are three main domains, 1) do tsumego, 2)have matches, 3) view kifu of masters.

About tsumego:

Tsumego is very very important for tygem 2D, two points should be emphasized

1) quantity.
When you meet a tsumego book, just buy it, even it is an easy book, you can keep it for your kids or your students. The classical tsumego books buy two pieces, one for everyday use, it should be dishevelled and fall to pieces, keep the other as a clean reference.

2) quality.
Don't do it only once, you should view it repeatly, until you are clear every variations in your mind, but it not enough, clear slowly and clear in 10 seconds it's different.

Two usual wrong ways when do tsumego:
a) Didn't clear every variations in your mind, just decide by feel, it's a critical mistake for your calculation.
b) Didn't calculate the best choice of your opponent, this cased wishful thinking in real game.

I recommend a method for doing tsumego, maybe helps you

Before do tsumego, prepare pen and paper for recording your mistakes. Generally speaking, there are three mistake type:

a) You think you were right, but when you saw the answer you found you were wrong. Find the reason why you mistaked, this is an effective way for your improvment of thorough calculation.

b) you can't calculate a result. Don't see the answer until you solve it, if you cost too much time on it, that means your level it's still far from the tsumego, abandon it.

c) you doubt the author of the tsumego was wrong. This is possible, you can consult with other players.

The above are principle of doing tsumego, let's talk about essential points.

You must choose a proper book for you, don't choose a very very hard book, if you only can resolve 10% to 20% problems, just abandon it. You should choose a book which you can resolve 60% to 80% problems, do it repeatly until you can easily resolve (clear every variations) more than 95% problems, then you should change a book.

I think the proper tsumego books for Tygem 2D are:
Lee ChangHo tsumego (volume 1 to 6)
http://senseis.xmp.net/?LiChangHoJingjiangWeiqiSihuo

Lee ChangHo tesuji (volume 1 to 6)
http://senseis.xmp.net/?LiChangHoJingjiangWeiqiShoujin

After you finish the 12 volumes, you are above Tygem 4D. Although the author was not Lee ChangHo, but the books are good, they contain almost every usual tsumegos and tesujis in real game.

Another book it's good as well, Weiqi Tsumego 1000 Problems(http://senseis.xmp.net/?WeiqiLifeAndDeath1000Problems), it fit from beginner to amateur 3D.

And a set named Weiqi Tsumego Training (http://senseis.xmp.net/?WeiqiLifeAndDeathDrills) (three volumes: junior, intermediate, senior), the senior volume it's for amateur 6D and pro player, ignore it, the other two volumes containt about 2000 problems, few of it hard a bit. After my student finished the two volumes, he progressed from Tygem 5k to 4D.

If you finished all the books above(about 4500 tsumego problems in total), I think you can stay at Tygem 6D.

After finish GuanZiPu(http://senseis.xmp.net/?GuanziPu), you can up to Tygem 7D.

Tygem 7D it's a barrier, calculation and comprehensive power are needed. If you want jump to 8D, do Tianlongtu(I can't find it on xmp.net), in my opinion Guanzipu's problems are one clue, but to solve Tianlongtu's problems you need find several right clues and compose them together, maybe this is the difference between pro and amateur?

If you have done all tsumegos above(about 7000 problems), your calculation already ahead common amateurs, and not far from real amateur master, you can stay at 8D.

Of course, you should calculate tsumegos but not learn by heart.

About have matches:

Let's talk about quality first, match it's the contest of two players' move efficiency, you should force you play the most efficient moves, this is the only way from 2D to 8D.

Choose every random 10 continuous steps from a game except the opening(first 10-20 steps) and closing(small endgames), we can see the efficiency of two players are different, the side has high efficiency will won the game.

One match has about 250 steps in all, 200 steps of them need compare efficiency (except opening and closing), so if a man want win he should collect tiny benefits from every moves of the game.

The rest it's meaningless, and there is no content about view kifu of masters
I translate another advice by a self-learned Tygem 6D

1. the foundation of weiqi it's calculation, do tsumego it's the best long-term way to improve.

Some beginner always think their opening it's weak, they use too much time on learn opening. But when I was playing with them I never feel their opening it's weak, because when stones touched they collapsed soon, opening theory doesn't work for them.

Remember, calculation it's the foundation of weiqi, it's the most important. The so-called calculation it's calculate two sides' variations, you imagine variation's stones on goban.

The best way to improve calculation it's do tsumego and tesuji, even pro player often do them.

As for opening, I can say responsibly it's meaningless for beginner, they know where is big points(http://senseis.xmp.net/?BigPoint) it's enough.

2. about joseki
Joseki it's the best moves of local dealing, of course the "best" it's always change, some josekis are changing every year.

The beginner don't need memorize too many joseki, two or three of star point and three or four of 3-4 point are enough. In many situations your opponent don't follow joseki, then you should deal with your own manner, and after game learn the proper joseki from book.

Joseki it's strange, I know some amateur 5D never memorize josekis, so for amateur player to determine the victory is immiddle game.

作者: ajiejiejie 时间: 2012-7-17 22:31
楼主挺幽默,这不是老外写的,是以前百度围棋吧的大吧主烟飘万里写的"论成年人如何自学围棋从弈城2段到弈城8段",被人翻成英语了吧,你可以对照原文看看

http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=276630635

作者: slcigh 时间: 2012-7-18 03:14
本帖最后由 slcigh 于 2012-7-18 03:15 编辑

这篇烂文也有人翻译成英文？

我两年前大约5K，受此文蛊惑开始苦做了大量的死活，技巧大全5遍以上，天龙图一遍，其他各种剪刀习题册复印诘棋书50本左右，现在也才弈城5D。我年纪还不算大，今年才27。

题目是“论成年人如何自学围棋从弈城2段到弈城8段（整理版）”，但其中内容恐怕只对天分好的小孩有效

此文主要强调做死活，具体的内容就是“做完XX书可以到X段“，把围棋这门复杂的科学说的根打怪升级一样简单。

按他的说法做7000道题就能打上弈城8D，且不说这7000题里除了官子谱、死活训练中级和天龙图都是些初级题。作者可能是个高手，在他眼里弈城8D很不值钱。

这篇文章的性质和淘宝上那些号称几副祖传中药就能治愈前列腺炎的基本一样，纯忽悠。

我现在每天不失眠则十几题，失眠则几十题中级死活，一年算下来至少也会做5000题左右，不知道再过3年能不能到8D。

作者: ajiejiejie 时间: 2012-7-18 09:07

这篇烂文也有人翻译成英文？

我两年前大约5K，受此文蛊惑开始苦做了大量的死活，技巧大全5遍以上，天龙图 ...
slcigh 发表于 2012-7-18 03:14

死活是棋力的基础,练好死活才可能成为高手,但成为高手的要素又不仅仅在死活一项,老兄2年从5K到5D,其实已经非常不错了,大多数棋友都没有这么快的进步速度的,说明做死活确实是涨棋的最佳途径,可能不如你原先预计的效果更好,但确实没有更好的方法了吧,另外想请教一下,老兄技巧大全做了5遍了,现在到什么程度了,能不能随便抽一道题,看一眼就能知道答案?我看一些介绍涨棋经验的文章,都说死活题只要要练到这个程度上弈城7D基本就没问题了

作者: reico 时间: 2012-7-18 09:18
两年从5K到5D，还是成人。相当厉害了。

作者: 飞扬围棋 时间: 2012-7-18 11:14
成人到5D是个坎,要花很多功夫才能过去.

作者: 飞扬围棋 时间: 2012-7-18 11:16
布局,中盘,官子要全面提高,多下,复盘找出输棋的原因很重要.

作者: slcigh 时间: 2012-7-18 12:52
回复 4# ajiejiejie

技巧大全做了5遍，但是离一眼算清还非常遥远，单纯的手法问题大概有一半能快速做出，但这个"快"也得是2-5分钟，比如那道“八仙过海”，一路扑印象深刻，但真要重新在脑子里整理清楚答案，还是得5分钟以上。另外有一部分单纯的计算问题，这部分题无论做几遍再做还是得花很长的时间。

我第一遍做这书的时候无论什么题都尽可能死算过去，现在明白这其中一些题是不适合我现在的棋力做到，比如一些变化图巨多的角部死活，还有一些棋形非常“不干净”类似发阳论的中盘题。我现在还在做这本书，但是加入了一点记忆的成分，每道题3分钟找不到计算的要点就直接看答案，另外放弃了二十几道难题，感觉现在死磕这些题还不如去被复杂定式。

作者: 清风翩翩 时间: 2012-7-18 13:59

这篇烂文也有人翻译成英文？

我两年前大约5K，受此文蛊惑开始苦做了大量的死活，技巧大全5遍以上，天龙图 ...
slcigh 发表于 2012-7-18 03:14

两年就从5K到5D,厉害

作者: ajiejiejie 时间: 2012-7-18 15:24
回复 8# slcigh

很佩服老兄练死活题的精神,我感觉你现在死活基础应该已经打得非常扎实了,通往8D的路上,最重要的一环已经被你攻克了,可能别的一些环节上还差点火候,围棋里不是有个木桶理论吗,建议老兄找些高手给自己复复盘,看看自己目前在哪个地方还存在明显问题,缺啥补啥,相信你不日定能如愿到达8D的

作者: 阿扬 时间: 2012-7-18 15:59
计算是个基本功，绕不开。我最近就在恶补计算

作者: slcigh 时间: 2012-7-18 16:42
回复 10# ajiejiejie

我今年在弈城下了40盘指导棋。其中有幸遇到了一位讲棋水平很高的强业5老师，和他下了10盘慢棋，感觉收获不小。

我自己总结了一下我的问题：
布局定式：谱背的多，不下复杂定式基本不会吃大亏。
中盘：缺乏行棋思路，下的很盲目，未见老师展现多深的算路，但我的棋总是被缠绕的很苦。另外很多局部缺乏手段。还有就是下棋太粗，很多小地方因为不细心而吃点小亏。
棋形：我自以为看了不少手筋，打了不少谱，棋形应该是比较正的。但还是经常被说棋形很怪，很多棋形没有效率或者缺乏后招。
官子：9/11/13的小盘官子题我做过一些，常见官子手筋会，常型官子大小知道，知道基本的收官次序.....但实际操练起来，那真是一塌糊涂。
攻杀死活：真杀起来其实差距不大。差距在于战前准备，比如在很早的定型中就注意可能对以后攻杀治孤的影响。

最终感想就是，围棋太难了，我基本是一点儿也不会下啊。

目前的努力方向：
布局定式太难了，摆不清楚也记不住。尽量通过打谱熟悉一些常型，下棋看棋时遇到不清楚的局部，去查一下棋书或者围棋学研网，记不住也留下一点印象，没准见个20次就会了。
官子太难了，简直是玄学，看多了还容易很早就收大官子，影响大局观，先放弃吧。
计算还是最重要的，而且可能也是唯一的努力就会有收获的部分。目前不追求太难的A级S级死活，常型死活能秒杀，B级C级题能15秒内找到棋形要点就行。另外打谱时见到的变化图要能在脑子里摆出来。
最关键的是要在四五年内保持涨棋热情，成人学棋没有捷径，全靠积累，只有每天都能有点收获，量变总会引发质变的吧。

作者: ajiejiejie 时间: 2012-7-18 17:31
回复 13# slcigh

是啊，围棋是个综合工程，环环相扣，首先要把各个单项技术全练好，这还不够，还需要把它们有机地整合起来，你说的中盘感觉行棋没思路，跟上手下，下着下着就不知不觉感觉被牵着鼻子走了，总结得很精辟，我想主要是我们下棋大多数都是快棋，布局阶段没有进行过整体构思，基本都是见招拆招的，这样在每个局部看起来好像都没吃什么大亏，但结合全盘来开，棋子之间结构和棋形组合起来发挥出来的合力效果可能在不经意间就落后于上手了，我看有些介绍涨棋经验的文章说，尽量要多下慢棋，要能静下心来慢慢琢磨，可能这样能逐步培养自己的行棋思路吧

作者: 爱棋家 时间: 2012-7-18 19:20
现在每星期抽半天时间到围棋俱乐部下二盘慢棋，其余.有空就翻看棋书..现在看孔祥明手筋＜布局篇＞,对局诊断，指出黑.白双方有问题的几手,摆在棋盘上细细比较，职业棋手的思路,目光全局，启迪良多。
什么时候到奕城8蛋，能到吗？
不着急，业余之乐趣全在棋力缓慢增长中，只要有兴趣，不长棋.也难.

作者: 不问苍生 时间: 2012-7-18 21:10
前几天在九歌瞎转，过来看看还是觉得这里最好~

作者: 飞扬围棋 时间: 2012-7-19 17:08
涨棋真得很重要么

作者: 飞扬破刀 时间: 2012-7-25 23:57
死活！还是死活！！

作者: James7Z 时间: 2023-9-17 00:43

slcigh 发表于 2012-7-18 03:14
这篇烂文也有人翻译成英文？

我两年前大约5K，受此文蛊惑开始苦做了大量的死活，技巧大全5遍以上，天龙 ...

楼主现在几D了，分享下心得

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