观点与事实——出十个有关日本围棋史的问题考考诸位的思辨能力和知识

多九公

这些问题本来是准备贴到“百度围棋吧”去的，但被那里的吧主设为只有我本人能看，别人看不到，所以干脆不贴了。上网二十六、七年，“围棋吧”给我留下的印象最糟。连纯粹介绍围棋史的帖子也要删，可见一斑。

这些问题因“吃龙万吨”在“知乎”上连篇累牍的“歪论”而出，此人为了“黑”吴清源已经彻底疯了。还真有跟着一起发疯的人，虽然人数不多。以我之见，中文资料中介绍的日本围棋史大约不到日文原文史料的十分之一，重大事件基本上涉及，但根本谈不上细节。所以，我觉得要必要适当提供一些真实史料给正常人看，也许还能挽救一些没有全疯的人。

观点与事实——出十个有关日本围棋史的问题考考诸位的思辨能力和知识

国人对“批判性思维”（Critical Thinking）或“思辨能力”这个来自西方的概念，也许已经不再陌生了。

牛津词典对Critical Thinking的解释也许最简单：Critical Thinking is defined as the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment。（批判性思维被定义为对一个问题进行客观的分析和评价，从而形成判断。）

美国小学从五、六年级起就开始培养学生的“批判性思维”能力，最基本的一点就是学习如何区分观点（Opinion）和事实（Fact）。国内从小学到中学一向信奉“填鸭式”教育，估计大概要到大学才会接触到。

有感于“吃龙万吨”在“知乎”上招摇（“在知乎上，关于吴清源的棋史，我说第二估计没人说第一了。”）和随处可见的信口雌黄，我拟了

十个有关日本围棋史有关吴清源和秀哉的问题，考考诸位的知识和能力，能否区分其中哪些是观点，哪些是事实，哪些是从来没有听说过的。

1， 吴清源：“秀哉是坏人。”

2， 吴清源：“秀哉把本因坊称号拿出来，卖给了新闻社。”

3， 吃龙万吨：“可以确定，‘秀哉把本因坊名号卖给日本棋院’的说法，是吴清源篡改历史，用以诋毁秀哉。”（“吴清源真相32——篡改历史”，编辑于2022-05-22，详见原文）

4， 关于秀哉名人对吴清源的这局胜负棋，秀哉在对局时似乎有些神经质，因为第160手的妙手波及右边的黑棋五子，胜负已定。即使胜负已定，他还是经常询问自己和吴清源消耗的时间。这是不服输的名人，似乎不想被人说在时间上的消费也比吴清源多。

5， 吃龙万吨：“濑越一门说有秀哉集体研究的传言，第三方说濑越一门有集体研究，但都没有实锤的证据。”（“吴清源真相7——名人胜负棋FAQ十答”，编辑于2022-05-28）

6， 前田陈尔：“铃木为次郎、濑越宪作都是秀哉的苦手。”

7， 1914年，铃木为次郎四段時，曾由私人赞助，与新晋名人的本因坊秀哉下十番棋，从受二子开始，连胜六局，卽先二多胜二局，秀哉一侧大为恐慌，赶紧叫停。棋谱没有收进《本因坊秀哉全集》。

8， 铃木五段時，受先对名人秀哉，多胜二局。从此秀哉避战，再也没有和铃木对局。

9， 1907年1月31日，田村保寿（秀哉）写信责问本因坊秀荣，十天后，卽2月10日，秀荣去世。

10， 吃龙万吨：“吴清源的十番棋是商业性的表演赛。”（多篇文章可见）

多九公

吃龙万吨 发表于 2023-1-25 13:13
1. 你智力太低，居然还在纠缠谁怎么说。

2，“避战”是尚未确认的事实，你就把这当依据，再次说明了你 ...

1，你智力太低，居然连存在的记录也要否认。

2，日本围棋史的常识，你不知道也罢了，还要打肿脸充胖子，说明你智力太低。

3，没人下定义的说法，你为什么要来混淆？就象秀哉付钱给秀元，你把吴清源夫妇拉扯进来干什么？既然拉了，就说明吃龙万吨和自己的老婆是嫖客和妓女。

4，原来飞扬上的人对吃龙万吨不太了解，现在就知道吃龙万吨是满口谎言的骗子。吃龙万吨明明知道在文章中用了错得离谱的译文来黑吴清源，还是舍不得删除，继续行骗，尽管脸被打的啪啪响。呆的时间越长，知道的人真相就越多，吃龙万吨也就越臭。

512song

第一句是我当初看到时，感觉最为突兀的一句话，当时几乎怀疑是假的，或者翻译有误。因为完全颠覆了之前的阅读记忆。

flyingsee

【有些分古棋爱好者，以前看见我发的帖子，没有任何事实根据，就喷我是“吃龙万吨”团队的。他不提及此人，我都不知道搜索一下“吃龙万吨”，然后才知道知乎上有这么个人连篇累牍的写吴清源大师的帖子。以上是事实。

以下是搜索到的有关报道。报道本身，不是“事实”本身，只是对“事实”的描述。二者之间可能有失真的地方。

但是，谢锐记者是这么多年跑围棋圈的老记者，我相信他写下来的，应该是他听到的如实记录。当然，这是我个人观点。】

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2002 ... 0.27484176831073426

提及往事吴清源怒发冲冠：秀哉绝不是好人(图)
http://sports.sina.com.cn 2002年11月13日11:50 体坛周报

　　记者谢锐北京报道 11月10日，吴清源夫妇及牛力力一行三人登上了去东京的飞机。送走老先生后，田壮壮的第一句话就是：“这些天真是太累了！”连他都感到累，88岁的吴清源如何感受就可想而知了。

　　远在韩国的江铸久九段、芮乃伟九段夫妇在电话中说：“有几个朋友看了文章后都对吴老师很敬佩。吴老师说话很快，一般都没有主语，不知内情的人有时看不懂，你也有句话误会了，当时在决定是否同意吴老师去日本的时候，犬养堂与濑越宪作那段谈话，犬养问，如果中国的天才来将日本的‘名人’夺去怎么办？濑越先生说，那正是他的本意。这个‘他’是濑越先生自己，而不是吴老师。这个时候的吴老师连自己的命运都无法决定，怎么会说要夺走日本的‘名人’呢？”

　　江芮夫妇还说，如果吴老师对哪个人说得很重很多的话，那肯定是爱之深了，一般都是对中国棋手才那样。比如说吴老师提到的“如果得了冠军、得了房子就是一得，得了小便宜就自得，这是小人”。那是他对有些棋手恨铁不成钢了。但如果是谈到他不在乎的人，那他就一句带过，比如他说“秀哉是坏人”，就再不愿多说。

　　临走前，牛力力也提到了濑越宪作与犬养堂那段谈话，说到濑越先生也对秀哉多有不满，也希望中国天才打败他，以实现自己实现不了的愿望。由此看来，吴清源对当时棋界的最大权威秀哉名人不抱好感，多少也受到其师的影响。当然了，肯定是秀哉名人的作为多有过分之处，才使得如此宽厚的吴清源也对其多有不齿。

　　但秀哉这位末代“名人”晚年不是将本因坊头衔捐献了出来，日本棋界才有真正的新闻棋战、围棋界才由此翻开新的一页吗？带着这个困惑，记者又硬着头皮去问临走前的吴清源老先生。老先生想了想说：“说秀哉是上世纪围棋界最了不起的人物，那不对！他晚年是将本因坊称号拿出来了，但那是卖给了新闻社，他把得到的钱去给自己买了一块地，什么都没给日本棋院和围棋界，但现在日本棋院还那么尊重他！”

　　很少看到老人有这样激动的时候，原以为他早已超然物外，淡看一切，谁知一触及他内心深处的话题，老人还是要一吐为快，语气也变得激越。但有一点，老先生他从不会为个人的爱恶与恩怨去评价哪个人、哪件事，不夸张地说，他可能也招致过种种非议，但他大概不曾有一个私敌，他的一切只属于围棋和整个社会。

flyingsee

吴清源：秀哉是坏人。——这是观点。

《体坛周报》曾于2002年发表记者谢锐的报道，报道中提及，吴清源说“秀哉是坏人”。——这是事实。

吃龙万吨：吴清源说“秀哉是坏人”，这话不对。——前半句是事实，后半句是观点。

多九公

512song 发表于 2022-6-6 08:30
第一句是我当初看到时，感觉最为突兀的一句话，当时几乎怀疑是假的，或者翻译有误。因为完全颠覆了之前的阅 ...

这句话最早是1999年旅日荷兰人Pieter Mioch采访吴清源的记录中出现的，登在荷兰围棋杂志上，后来由英国围棋史家John Fairbairn译为英文，分三部分发在网上，现在还能看到。
当时（应该在1999年到2000年之间）我在“中国围棋网”或无酒的“棋人网”介绍过，也转贴过英文译文。同样，看了吴清源对秀哉的评论，我也感到相当震撼，还特地写信给Pieter Mioch询问吴清源所用的日语原文。谢记者当时也常来网站，之后就出现了中文报导。可惜我的旧电脑损坏，硬盘虽然取出，但是个“大脚盘”，和后来的硬盘格式不同，就没有把其中的文档转出来。





关于秀哉的评论出现在第二部分。https://gobase.org/studying/articles/mioch/goseigen/interview-2.html

The Pieter Mioch interviews Go Seigen (part 2)Honinbo Shusai

Go Seigen and Pieter Mioch

Another famous episode in the career of Go Seigen is his game against Honinbo Shusai. In order to make plain what was so special about this game, first a little bit of go history.

The start of professional go in Japan was approximately contemporaneous with the battle of Nieuwpoort, around 1600, and it began with the Buddhist monk Nikkai. Nikkai was the first head of the Honinbo go school. In 1612, the authorities began officially to sponsor the four greatest go schools: Honinbo, Yasui, Inoue and Hayashi. The Honinbo school had the leading position, thanks to the overwhelming strength of Nikkai. In 1588 he was able to win a tournament organised by the government. It brought him a fixed annual income, paid by the Shogun.

The name Honinbo, incidentally, comes from a pavilion on the land of a temple in Kyoto where Nikkai lived. When the capital was moved to Tokyo in 1603, Nikkai had to go along. Once arrived there, he made a title of the name Honinbo and changed his name to Honinbo Sansa. He is best known by this name. In Tokyo he received an established post and he was, amongst other things, responsible for the spread of go in Japan. He took this very seriously. It is Honinbo Sansa and his school that Japan must thank a great deal for the level at which go is played at present.

The supremacy of the Honinbo school was off and on in danger, but even when the authorities stopped sponsoring go in 1868, the Honinbo school still supplied the strongest go players. This was in spite of the problems and reverses, the lack of income and accommodation. It seems that later there was talk of a certain sclerosis of playing techniques precisely because the Honinbo school always stood at the top. Dogmas arose: specific opening moves, for instance, were marked down as good or bad. Moves rejected by the Honinbo school normally never appeared on the board in professional games.

When Go arrived in Japan, the Honinbo school was still the leader of the go world. The prestige of the head of the school, Honinbo Shusai, was enormous - the more so because Shusai had acquired, in addition to the title of Honinbo, the highest possible of Meijin (master). Through his position, Shusai represented centuries of go wisdom and tradition. Go Seigen was unintentionally to be cast in the role of braggart and rebel - a role which by no means suits this especially friendly and mild-mannered man, and which he himself had never knowingly sought.

The game between Go Seigen and Honinbo Shusai, which at the time was regarded by everyone (and by some still is) as the game of the century, began on 16 October 1933 and lasted almost three months. The actual playing time, the time that both participants actually sat at the board, was 14 days. the newspapers had considered that it would be good for circulation to publicise this game widely as a confrontation between Japan and China. As a result, Go was often troubled by nationalists and the windows of his house were smashed in.

"I have never taken much part in politics or the like. This was not the first time that I was an accessory to events in which emotions ran very high."

Go had to put up with this inimical atmosphere for three months. As nominally the stronger player, Shusai had the privilege of deciding whenever the game should be adjourned.

Because, at the time, there was no sealing of moves, it meant that the player whose turn it was to move could continue to study the position leisurely at home. Shusai made shameless use of this privilege. Thus it came about that, at the resumption of play on the eighth day, Shusai played first, Go answered within two minutes, and Shusai then thought for three and a half hours, only to adjourn the game. Go was thus at a particular disadvantage.

It is therefore not surprising that, whenever the ideal duration of a game comes up for discussion, Go has a very forthright opinion. A game must, one way or another, be completed in one day.

"Cho Chikun lost yesterday because he had selected a large-scale, difficult joseki,"

said Go, by way of explanation.

"That is precisely what is wrong with go in Japan today. They are too attached to corner patterns (josekis). Go ought to be played on the whole board. And why Cho is using all is time on one joseki in a game with three hours thinking time is a mystery to me."

Go's unorthodox style attracted much attention. He was the darling of the newspapers, which recorded top sales during the match between Go and Shusai. His opening move at 3-3 was unheard of for a professional.

Go: "Everyone said a move on the 3-3 point was bad and could not be played. I simply did not understand that, and wanted to see for myself why it was supposed to be bad."

In the end, Shusai won the game by two points. But there is yet another remarkable story attached to the game. It is on account of White's move in Diagram 1, a brilliant move that made a significant contribution to Shusai's victory. It was an open secret that Go in fact had to take on the whole Honinbo clique at the same time. Whenever Shusai had adjourned the game, he studied the position with his students to find the best move together.

The story is that White's move in Diagram 1 was a brilliant discovery by one of Shusai's pupils: none other than Maeda Nobuaki, who became famous for his books on tsume-go (go problems). This move, which at a stroke brings White back into the game, was therefore apparently not thought of by Shusai himself.

Go's teacher, Segoe Kensaku, let drop years later, according to what he assumed was an "off-the-record" conversation in a bar, that White 1 was a move by Maeda and not by Shusai. When this pronouncement appeared in a newspaper the next day, the whole Honinbo school was furious, and Segoe had to bear a very heavy burden. Every day he received threatening letters, and a band of supporters of the Honinbo school bent on revenge even posted themselves in front of his house. Eventually he had to give up his post on the board of the Ki-in and make a public apology.

"I am very sorry that there were some things I did not realise until later," said Go. " Honinbo Shusai and my teacher were definitely not bosom pals, but that went totally over my head."In an interview in the 1980s, he said,"Only years later did I come to know that Segoe had made that statement, and that he therefore had to endure so much."

The game to one side, Go had the following to say on Shusai in the interview:

"Was Honinbo Shusai a villain? He was a scoundrel! How the Ki-in manages to deify this person of all people is unbelievable!"

He goes quiet for a moment, then suddenly he declares in a surprisingly loud voice and with much agitation:

"A villain. He was a villain! He is now praised to the skies by the Ki-in and depicted as one of the heroes of this century, yet - mark you well - he sold his title to the newspapers for mere lucre and bought with it a fair-sized piece of land in Tokyo without giving one cent to the Ki-in or the go world."

And so he goes on...

czh300

谢锐当年在体坛周报这篇报道印象很深，20年后再看还是那么感慨，谢谢flyingsee。

512song

我最早看到的还不是谢锐的文章，是一篇访谈中的，但没有荷兰文中下面关于本因坊的继续

jianglei

老吴在棋盘上是天才，是圣人，但棋盘外，就是普通人，棋盘外的观点不重要，对错都不用上纲上线，否则侵华劳军、入籍和宗教等，完全扯不清了，所以，他无愧为昭和棋圣，秀哉，无愧为本因坊名人！

当然，如果是治史，那的确需要研究和严谨了！

N6973

吃龙万吨，精力全用在黑吴清源了，主业就是干这个吧

肥仔胡

从3－10我个人认为都不靠谱。只有1－2我看到谢锐的文章，以及吴老的访谈里有。具体出处已经记不清了。3，吴说，“秀哉把本因坊名号卖给了读卖新闻社，并用这个钱买了房子”。4，吴在自传里说，本因坊一门黑压压一帮，在研究他和秀哉的对局，让他感到心惊，这是他自传里说的。5，濑越一门集体研究，吴从没说过，但研究拆棋也很正常，又不是一天下完。6，前田陈尔从没说过这种话，如果说过请说明出处。本因坊门很重规矩的，前田这种话，在日本传统里不可想象。比如依田说“秀行先生下不过聂卫平”，大家觉得有这个可能吗？除非他不想混了。

肥仔胡

7，铃木对秀哉的连胜，怎么没有收进《秀哉全集》，拜托不要睁眼说瞎话好吗？8，秀哉在被铃木连胜后避战，是一种推测，当然可以认为是有道理的，因为和一个五段从先二变成定先，多少有点让名人没面子，但作者要说明这是自己的推测。但不要以秀哉代言人自居，说难听点，你又不是秀哉肚子里的蛔虫。9，秀哉问责秀荣，希望拿出原始证据。一般情况下，这种做法在日本很难想像。10，吴清源的比赛是商业表演赛，这是一种个人观点，在前面加上“我认为”比较好。另外商业表演差哪了，有了商业才有社会进步，老是农耕文化，你现在还在坐马车呢。

肥仔胡

九公不必和吃龙万吨一般见识，有文化的人和文盲有什么可争的。我的情况有点两样，是一帮文盲流氓骂上门来，说我勾结日本文部省，收取津贴，美化南京大屠杀，贬低抗美援朝，蟑螂，汉奸，猩猩之类的乱骂，我才不得不反击。本来如果两条平行线，各走各路，读过书的，和文盲流氓有啥可计较的，您说是吗？好人坏人怎么说呢？我只知道人要善良，有同情心有同理心，这个世界上有没有圣人，或许吧？我妈在我小时候告诉我，“圣人没有肚脐眼”，大家找找看吧，没准在滚滚红尘里就能找到，没准在海边或者公共浴池里就发现一个，不要犹豫，倒头便拜。

llhawk

吴大师不是某一个人或者几个人就可以黑得了的，不必在意这些无聊的言语

肥仔胡

忘了一点，遗漏看了，秀哉对吴的那个星三三天元对局，耗时超过了吴。秀哉耗时22小时16分，吴耗时22小时6分。由于名人有打卦的特权，而且封棋最后一手必须由黑棋下，白有更多时间进行局外研究。如果秀哉还在意明面上的耗时问题，在旁观者看来不是显得特别虚伪吗？给人一种装腔作势的感觉，他至于这么弱智吗？拜托不要编故事。问时间有意义吗？没有一点意义。因为这个棋整整下了14天，这个14天不是连续的，是每周一下的。所以下了14周，跨度为两年。吴先生说秀哉名人有一次长考了3小时37分，下不了决心，还是打卦。所以说秀哉要盘面和时间双赢，简直是放屁。

告别的年代

当年在论坛和吃龙激烈辩论过无数回，心理上确实见到这个人产生恶心的感觉了。居然在知乎上成为了棋史专家，虽然是自封的，但迷惑性不容小觑。当年在论坛虽然还没到人人喊打的程度，但基本上众多坛友也是把这个人和松江河当做一个笑话看（和松江河一个团队或就是一个人这个没问题，以发文中间的大红字为标志性，其自己也亲口说过分身众多，分身还要分各种不同性格人设。很是变态。）
        下面说说自己的感想，毕竟这么多年了，很多东西都忘记了，材料也找不到了。
         秀哉是坏人，我印象里怎么还看过视频？如果有误那就是记错了。不过文字资料确实没见过荷兰记者此文，多九公还是材料掌握多啊！
          秀哉是坏人吗？当然是。从万年劫到除门案再到与雁金和吴对局随意打挂集体研究致胜等等，是个坏人确实不用多说。濑越被逼辞职可见坊门到了那个时间还是势力巨大，而且这个事与吴清源实际被日本棋院除名有直接关系，这个事对吴清源影响非常大。
            至于前田陈尔，秀哉其他弟子也曾经在自己书里明确写到过是前田陈尔想出那个妙手，也有说是大家七嘴八舌讨论出来的。不过吴清源好像也并不在意，是不是坏人的点也不在这里。
             吃龙说集体讨论对吴清源有利，这个纯属胡扯不值一驳，不过可见吃龙其人的风格就是以诡辩见长。至于濑越一门吴的朋友也和吴集体讨论什么的，这个更无聊。
              很多棋友呼应吴清源先生什么劳军甚至什么汉奸，很悲哀的是有些人是受吃龙万吨这种人影响。这吃龙把这意见的文章贴得到处都是，中国网络环境也是乱七八糟。这个不说了，要说起来比较长了，没什么必要。吃龙这个人的目的实际上就是为了通过黑吴，黑中国古棋，黑掉中国人的骄傲，这个可以细品。
             对了，商业表演。嘿嘿，有这样的商业表演？库之助揣着辞职信去下棋？众多棋手喊打倒吴清源？不聊这个了，太无聊。
              总之，吃龙此人，擅长的就是诡辩，偷梁换柱搞一些东西来混淆是非。而且马甲众多，战斗力迷惑力极强。这个人真正是个坏人与烂人。